Update- Ok, I knew the non-vegans were going to lose this argument..... But I didn't think they would crash THIS HARD.

Astonishingly, the best argument any of you came up with is:

"Veganism is not the ethical choice because I have a personal vendetta against nutritional supplements and factories".

...... (no, really)

This has been stimulating and engaging. I thank the responders for their participation. If anybody else has anything to add, don't hesitate.

Every comment supports the miners with fees and also supports this cool website!

peace out brothers

hello there,

Why do you think virtually all farm animals are supplemented with B12?

Yeah I know about that thing where the gut creates it.... but in modern times without that supplement their gut won't create it.

Do you think farmers are spending their hard-earned money on B12 supplements for their animals for no reason? Why would they spend all that money if the animals' guts supplied it reliably?

Did you read the links I posted?

Hello there,

In modern times, farmed animals are absolutely supplemented with B12. See below.

https://www.valleyvet.com/rooster-booster-liquid-b-12-plus-vitamin-k

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/durvet-hi-level-vitamin-b-complex

https://www.nbinno.com/article/nutritional-chemicals/vitamin-b12-feed-additive-animal-nutrition-mo

https://spectrumcare.pet/farm-animals/pig/medications/cobalamin

In the past (pre-industrial revolution), B12 was plentiful in meat, eggs, untreated drinking water, and even on vegetables due to trace amounts of untreated dirt. This is no longer the case.

See the valleyvet link above? I imagine this "Rooster Booster" supplement and others like it are adding a substantial amount of B12 to the eggs and other items.

You seem to be romanticizing nature, thinking that if you can't do something without technology, then it's not good? Without technology, none of us would be alive. Factories are good. Supplements are good. Health is good. This is human.

Nature is good too. But humans are very smart and inventive. We're able to harness the benefits of nature while protecting ourselves from the downsides of it (to a degree).

Even if you don't take the pill yourself, you would still run out of B12 if your animals weren't getting it.

If we as a society stopped all supplementation, you and I would probably run out of B12 reserves at the same time. You are supplementing B12, you're just not aware of it.

I look forward to your response bro,

hello there,

Here are my numbered responses to your responses:

1. "Lack of B12 in a vegan diet is proof that the diet is nutritionally inferior."

my response- As long as you're adequately supplementing B12, your body won't run out of B12 stores.

1a) "Donald Watson made it clear that even if this new diet idea proves inadequate, he would support it and follow it regardless out of principle. This invalidates veganism."

my response- Donald Watson was a gangster. I personally wouldn't have been willing to risk my own health for the sake of this principle at that time in history. He put himself through an experiment which was probably very scary at the time....... he ended up living a healthy active life and died at age 95, remaining a very active "fell-walker" and gardener until shortly before his death. So although he would've personally been willing to harm himself, he didn't. His experiment proved that animal products aren't required to survive or thrive.

2. "If you can't do the right thing without the help of factories, then it's not really the right thing".

my response- ......................... huh?

3. "Your stated numbers regarding land and water use aren't exactly correct."

my response- No they're not exactly precise numbers, but that's obvious. Everything isn't going to be a factor of exactly 1,000..... I was using a round clean number to illustrate my point. Here's my point without numbers stated- "A diet including dairy and meat requires way more land and crop production, therefore the concerns for field mice and insects increase massively if you include animal products in your diet."

4. "People haven't been doing veganism for a long time and it requires a pill. This means it's not a good idea."

my response- Pills are awesome. They have benefited humanity greatly and are one of the many reasons humans are living longer and healthier. As far as being a new idea, yes veganism is a new idea...... what's your point? Monero has only been a thing for 12 years or so, correct?

5. "Veganism causes your body to suffer."

my response- I have not witnessed or experienced this. Do you have any proof?

5a) "Whether or not it's cheaper depends on what you buy".

my response- You're correct. What's your point?

6. "You conceded about the blood, bones, and feathers. You admitted that your food benefits from these inputs."

my response- Veganic farming doesn't require "the gas well". It rotates leaves or something like that, idk. Look it up if you're interested. My understanding is that the important thing is nitrogen. Yeah my food doesn't currently come from veganic farming.... but I will switch to that if I see it on store shelves. This doesn't invalidate my argument; doing 99% the right thing isn't as bad as doing 0% the right thing, if that makes sense.

SIDE NOTE-
This is neither here nor there, because there's nothing inherently wrong with pills.... but before the industrial revolution, humans got B12 from untreated drinking water and from the trace amounts of dirt on their vegetables...... Likewise, in our modern industrial world, the farm animals also need to be supplemented with B12. So the B12 you're getting from hamburgers etc.. wouldn't be there if the cows weren't given B12 pills at the farm.

I look forward to your response. So far, my assertion that "veganism is the ethical choice" hasn't been proven wrong.

lolololololollolol

that's a very bad idea.

The short-list of coins that interest me are:

-Monero
-Grin
-Nano
-Kaspa (sort of, but at the same time ewww lol)
-Bitcoin (sort of but ugh, lol)
-Wownero (lol)

Monero is my fave though. It's super fun to mine it. It encapsulates the libre-software ethos more so than other coins IMO.

Ok lets go through your points bro.

1. "Veganism is inferior nutritionally."

my response- Do you have evidence for this? I haven't witnessed or experienced this.

2. "As a vegan, you need to take supplements and live in a modern society".

my response- This is correct. What's your point?

3. "As a vegan, your diet requires lots of water and land to produce grain".

my response- Yes. And when you consume animal products, you require 1000x more water and land and grain compared to a vegan. This is because you need to feed your farm animals 1,000 calories for every 1 calories harnessed in the form of meat and dairy. Some dude already made this point, and I already responded similarly.

4. "Veganism is just a fad."

My response- When all good ideas are new, they can be considered a fad.

5. "Veganism is more expensive, both financially and internally".

My response- Financially it's actually much cheaper. By paying internally, I'm not sure if you're referring to physical health (addressed above) or mentally. If you mean mentally, then this is partially true depending on the individual. Going against the grain can be psychologically difficult if it causes society to shun you etc.. But whether or not society shuns something doesn't always determine whether or not it is ethical. Most of society shuns Monero too, for example.

6. "You need blood and bone for the fertilizer. This makes vegans hypocrites."

My response- It doesn't really make vegans hypocrites. Vegans ironically require orders of magnitude less crop fields, as explained above. Furthermore, the bones and blood are useful because of the nitrogen. There is an emerging farming model referred to as "veganic" farming, which obtains all the required nitrogen by cycling dead leaves or something like that. I don't claim that my food comes from veganic farming, but it is an interesting topic. In any case, yeah blood and bones are extremely plentiful because they're a byproduct of animal agriculture, so they're basically free inputs in the current landscape...... This doesn't invalidate my claim that veganism is the ethical choice; if animal agriculture stopped, we'd get the needed nitrogen other ways.

Conclusion-
You definitely typed a lot of words, but you failed to "prove me wrong" as requested.

Hello,

Ok so your point is that veganism isn't the ethical choice because vegans will inadvertently harm themselves via nutrient deprivation.

Do you have evidence that this is true? I've never witnessed or experienced this before.

This doesn't prove me wrong as requested. Lets go through each of your points:

1. "My ancestors did X thousands of years ago because they needed to in order to not die out. This makes X ethical".

response- Can you explain why this is logical?

2. "Some meat is more nutrient-dense than others."

response- True. What's your point?

3. "If we don't commit violence regularly, we'll all get soft and won't be able to dish out violence when we need to for self defense and defense of our families."

my response- False. We can be civilized and peaceful as much as possible and still be able to dish out violence when we need to for defense etc.. This is exactly why martial arts, weight lifting, and guns (for self defense) exist.

Honestly bro, this is disappointing. Is this the best you can come up with?

Pathetic.

So to sum up your thoughts there....

1. "you can't avoid 100% harm"

My response- Correct, you can't. But my point is that you can reduce unintentional harm 1,000 fold and at the very least not hold sentient beings captive.

2. "Vegan diets aren't healthy if you only eat vegan junk food."

My response- Correct, I agree.

3. "Plant Based eaters eat more plants to gain better health, not to help animals."

My response- Yes these people exist. They're often referred to as "plant-based" rather than "vegan".

What overall point are you trying to make with these stated thoughts?

Instead of Cake wallet, use a far superior wallet, such as the official GUI, official CLI, Feather, or Monerujo. These options much easier for beginners (well maybe except for CLI) and far superior in general.

All the examples of suffering you pointed out are multiplied 1000x when you include animal products in the mix. This is because you need to feed the animals 1,000 calories for every 1 calorie you produce in meat/dairy/etc.. Where do all those calories come from? Plants. Plants which when harvested kill mice (however most successfully run away from the harvester BTW) and bugs like you said. If you consume animal products, you ironically require orders of magnitude more plants than a vegan.

Numbers aside, it's just feels dirty and wrong to hold sentient beings in captivity.... locked up in your shed or whatever.

Thanks for responding.

Can you point out specifically which of the 25 links actually work? I just tried like 5 of them at random and none of them successfully loaded.

This sounds gay.

My argument is that veganism is the ethical choice.

If you can, prove me wrong.